Hi, my name is Georgiana. I am the CEO and founder of Beaglecat, and soon you will be listening to Employer Branding: The Inside Podcast. In this podcast, I regularly talk to employer branding managers and acquisition managers, and human resources managers in tech companies in Germany, Romania, and the US. For more content on employer branding-related themes, go to employerbranding.tech or beaglecat.com. Stay tuned!
Overview
Episode 5 of #Employer Branding: The Inside Podcast is #LiveNow!
In this episode, we talked with Oana Iordachescu, Head of Talent Acquisition at Wayfair, about creating #DEI frameworks that walk the talk. We also spoke about recruitment bias, inclusive entrepreneurship, and ways of integrating diversity and inclusion into the employer branding aspect of a business.
What you’ll learn by listening
- How to bridge the knowledge gap in diversity & inclusion
- Overcoming challenges & acknowledging opportunities when building D&I initiatives
- Infusing D&I into your organization the right way
- An overview of inclusive entrepreneurship
- Integrating diversity and inclusion into the employer branding aspect of a business
- How can HR escape bias in recruitment
- Employee benefits & the connection to D&I
About Wayfair
Wayfair is the destination for all things home: helping everyone, anywhere create their feeling of home. From expert customer service to the development of tools that make the shopping process easier, to carrying one of the widest and deepest selections of items for every space, style, and budget, Wayfair gives everyone the power to create spaces that are just right for them.
Podcast link – Enjoy listening on Spotify!
Podcast transcription – Employer Branding T.I.P S07Ep.05
Georgiana:
Good morning, everyone! A new episode of Employer Branding: The Inside Podcast and today I’m talking to someone who is a fellow Romanian, I have to say, which makes me super happy. Her name is Oana Iordachescu. And she’s an amazing professional in talent acquisition, diversity and inclusion. But Oana, I will let you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do aside from your life at Wayfair.
Oana Iordachescu:
Hello, hello, everybody. I think you’re the first one in about 10 years who did not mispronounce my name. Thank you so much for inviting me. I’ve been listening to your podcast, I’m learning a lot. Your guests are some people that I admire. So I appreciate being here. Very, very honored. Thank you so much. Your question, What am I doing outside Wayfair? Oh, what am I not doing? I was actually talking to some friends that I want to take a break or I need to take a break.
And at the same time, I was like, I didn’t know how to take a break. So when I’m not doing work, I do a podcast as well. called We Include, where we highlight inclusion initiatives, and businesses for good around European space. It’s amazing to meet again, very interesting people around there. I’m a very outdoorsy person, a cycling, hiking, swimming, scuba, whatever it is with people. Unfortunately, now I’m in a cast. So all that will need to be postponed for a couple of months. I was looking at some pictures, me doing some long cycling routes in zero degrees. I was like, why was I doing that to myself? But yes, a lot of work in talent acquisition, but also kind of trying to reconnect with nature as much as possible. And with people that don’t do what I do. So I refresh a little bit my mind all the time.
Georgiana:
Oana, I’m really curious about what drew your attention to diversity and inclusion. Because many times, you know, people in talent acquisition, maybe just stick to talent acquisition. What changed your mind about going into this direction?
Oana Iordachescu:
I think there is a certain value that I discovered throughout time as being a gate opener to people that don’t really have an easy way to get in. And I’m saying this because I think talent acquisition in general, is seen as the gatekeeping of going into a company. And that’s kind of true, like we say more ‘no’ to people than we say ‘yes’. We interviewed 1000s of candidates to hire a few 10s, maybe a few 100 here and there. But the value to when I started, almost 10 years ago, I remember very vividly, I was working in a recruitment agency. I was recruiting some network engineers, and there was a job description that came from a client that says you need to lift 60 kilograms.
And immediately that drew my attention to a lot of maybe, let’s say my first thought was women will say ‘hell, no, sorry’. But then people with disabilities, if you are pregnant, if you have something right, but that one thing, and secondly, you’re a network engineer, you develop scripts and put cables and you have machines, if you actually need to lift a server or some do some work in the data center, whatever we will have to do there. So I found that very disturbing. So since then, I kind of paid attention more and more to requirements that didn’t create inclusion. And I was very adamant about calling those out. And then from there, it’s just a snowball, because the more you pull the thread, you discover more discrimination and injustice, sometimes not intentional, just by habit, but if you don’t call it out, people actually don’t change. So I just made a little bit of my mission to do that.
Georgiana:
So you sort of went from the opposite direction. You know, you started by putting aside things that people don’t do. Right?
Oana Iordachescu:
Usually have these job descriptions or requirements for certain job profiles that are outdated. Like maybe it was the case when you were a network engineer, to pull cables on a pillar or outside and you had to do, I don’t know, whatever, more physical work. But when we were doing was not that and that is replicated in a lot of different job profiles actually. So these things actually do repeat.
Georgiana:
Exactly. I think it also made a lot of sense 10 years ago when awareness was kind of low in this area. So I’m wondering, what exactly determine you to start the podcast? You saw there’s a lot of discrimination you saw there’s a lot of, I don’t know, situations that aren’t transparently described or put out there. Why start this podcast? Is there something in particular that said, you know, I have to speak it out, I have to start inviting people and interviewing them and spreading the word?
Oana Iordachescu:
Yeah, this is actually very interesting. For the past seven years or so I am leading recruitment teams, I have built, let’s say, from zero to 30 tech, or commercial or other type of recruitment teams in different countries in Europe. So I work in Dublin, Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin, and Bucharest. And while doing the D&I work both as an IC or leader in an organization, wherever I would go in, I would discover a gap in knowledge within those organizations around how can I do better D&I work. And everywhere, we had to kind of reinvent the wheel. I’ll give you an example. You go into an organization and okay, we want to do more di you start with the language and your job descriptions. And you start with, let’s say, raising awareness to your talent acquisition teams and your hiring teams.
And every time, we would have to design almost internally, all these type of sets of expertise, whether it’s language control, or trainings and awareness. And it takes a long time, when you do it by yourself. You don’t really have the expertise, yada, yada, yada. But being in those positions, where I could actually allocate budgets to make these programs more sustainable, more expert based, I used to have a lot of demos, from experts and service and product providers in the market, selling somehow better solutions that we could buy off the shelf, and just change those things from maybe a month to another versus six months. And seeing that internally as a receiver, as a potential buyer, I want to make sure that there is more awareness in the European market, around the experts in our markets. Because the second piece of this initiative is that a lot of the times when you work in organizations, and you want to do D&I work, you either end up or are being sent to US resources, which are not very well suited for European problems.
Georgiana:
And I’m wondering, you know, when you said they’re not suited to the European context, is it because it’s more racially driven, probably in the States?
Oana Iordachescu:
A few things. One is the data availability in the European space. On one side, we have GDPR. And a lot of the European data protection aspects, which do not permit a lot of organizations to collect data about candidates. You collect data about your employees, and you can do certain reports or analyzes about your current employee population, because it’s your data on your server with your employees. But you cannot do what they do in the US. Well, you cannot do it as easily to collect data about your candidates, which is very different. You cannot say I want to build a diverse pipeline without actually measuring how my pipeline looks like if you talk about talent acquisition.
So database is one thing, then the second underlying problem is that each state in the European Union has its own labor laws, and equality laws, and work. In France, for example, the word ‘race’ is not even recognized. In Germany, that would be a very sensitive topic to start tracking ethnicity because of historical reasons. Like some things are very much in the law and a lot of things that are also culturally tabu or need changing, sensitive. So that thing to these realities, takes an intentional drive to discover what are some of these parameters or constraints that you need to be in, which are very interesting, actually, and are the right things to do. Not everybody has the same minorities in each country. If I say I’m gonna focus on people of color, and I’m like, Yeah, but maybe that’s not really a big problem. How do we do it right? These nuances are very, very, I discovered they’re very portend and very helping you. They’re actually helping you to address situations from those specific countries and those specific populations more directive than just, I’m doing D&I and I’m going to take this segment of population.
Georgiana:
And you know what? Since I’ve started to work with employer branding and HR specialists with people such as you, I realized and discovered that there’s so much complexity when it comes to diversity and inclusion. And each of the guests that I’ve ever interviewed for this podcast has a different approach to it. But still, I’m wondering, you know, when you’re Zalando, or on or when you’re Wayfair or Idealo, you have the budget to have people manage diversity and inclusion. Maybe at Zalando, you have an entire team managing diversity and inclusion. But what do you do when you’re a startup? When you don’t have money for it, you don’t have the knowledge, you don’t have anyone to implement it. So how can you, as a leader, make use of some basic tips to be more inclusive?
Oana Iordachescu:
I love that you asked that. And I was a bit angry. The other day I met somebody who does business development for Gartner. Gartner does a lot of advising for young startup founders using data and kind of showing them the path. And I asked, Oh, I have this portfolio of about 12 people. I’m like, how many of these people are women? And he just like, froze. He’s like, Oh, none. So what is our expectation, when we go and say, hey, the next generation or the next businesses are going to be more inclusive. And they don’t necessarily start the right way. That being said, though, education plays a huge role. And I just want to tell this story. When I was working at Facebook many, many years ago, and I was recruiting for a department, very, very technical site reliability engineers, infrastructure staff.
They were 100 people in Dublin, none of them women, all of them very similar, different ethnicities. So that kind of helped a little bit. And I said, this needs to change. And the thing that actually changed first was the openness of this, let’s say 20 men, we kind of chose some champions from that group, to learn about maternity leave; learn the differences of how people interview based on some, let’s say, distinct identity markers. There are some patterns, we need to just learn and adapt and kind of just be aware. Maybe some things actually don’t prove the bias or do not prove the stereotypes, which is often, but you need to understand those things. And this is my call out to startup founders, to people who work in a startup. Sometimes just getting educated so the organization has a full dedicated segment on inclusive entrepreneurship, which has so many resources around funding, growing teams expanding, creating awareness.
Like there’s no excuse today anymore, okay. And you’re gonna get some stuff, although that also is another problem that we’re gonna face. But education is the first step for sure. Implementation is hard. And as you were saying, I think for almost all my career, to be honest, there was this question, what’s the silver bullet? What’s the one thing I need to do to change this? And my answer today is, this is a systemic complex problem. To solve some, I don’t know, sales and conversion. There’s not one thing you do. You do so many different things to address your marketing problems, right. The same you need to do for people strategy.
Georgiana:
And you know what? I was just thinking right now that recently a few weeks ago, I helped my husband who is in tech, a tech entrepreneur, I helped him organize this event on quantum computing, where we invited tech product owners in Berlin. And believe me, Oana, me and my colleague, we really struggled to identify one woman who would attend this event, one woman. I think I found two or three, they were not available, but the vast majority of people who have a voice in the space are men. And like I said, diversity and inclusion is a very complex issue. And I know some people are facing issues and problems that are much more difficult and important than the ones that I am mentioning. But I I keep on wondering, thinking of my own example all the time.
When you have to balance work and personal life or children, you don’t have time to write content on LinkedIn or you don’t have time I’m to put yourself out there and get yourself into a voice. And I find it so unfair, you know? And when I opened the event, I was the only woman, I was the organizer, the person coming from employer branding and marketing. And I told them, you know, guys, I’ve really struggled to find a woman, someone who’s in product, who’s in in tech, who would be with us today. And you know, they were kind of supportive. And some of them said, you know, but next time, let us know, maybe we give a shout out to our network. It shouldn’t be this hard.
Oana Iordachescu:
And the networking piece is very interesting. I think that’s the second big, especially for leaders. If you start on the path of building a business; if you get to lead the business, at some point, expanding that network of yours, internally and externally makes a world of difference. I want to say that every hiring process is super tight. But no, especially when we talk about executive hiring, when we talk about leadership hiring, when we talk about succession planning, I’m sorry, but the MBA networks are successful for a reason. Because the network is what keeps that glue together. And there is that extra validation of quality, yada, yada. But if your network is 95% Men, then the 5% women that you know, they’re not going to match on timing, as you are saying. I’ve done this event, there are women there, but they were just not available. Right. And I’m gonna ask you, what was the hour when the event happened?
Georgiana:
Yeah, that’s another aspect. I think around 7pm.
Oana Iordachescu:
Whenever we do events now, and this is something we discovered by doing and messing it up. Like 5.30 pm; somebody would get an hour away from work. And that hour can be, you know, shuffled around to an event. That’s great. And it works to be honest.
Georgiana:
You’re right, you’re right. And that brings me to all the nice and interesting events that are happening at Mindspace. And they all happen at five, and I have to pick my daughter up at four, and then whatever work I still have to do, I do in the evening. So I’m like, I can never participate. I would like to have some French wine and some cheese every now and then, you know, with the people at Mindspace. But it’s not for me, because I’m at school.
Oana Iordachescu:
I’ve seen now doing a lot of breakfast time or lunch, I think there is variation. And we just need to keep trying for this because it is having access to the fun part, to be honest, having a job sometimes, and the connections and meeting new people and getting some more ideas from those events. That’s the purpose of the events actually.
Georgiana:
And how would you say that diversity and inclusion can be integrated into the employer branding aspect of the business?
Oana Iordachescu:
I love that. Every time I had the opportunity to and I think it was three times now already to work on EVP in partnership with our employer brand specialists. You do a lot of discovery, right? When you build an EVP. You do a lot of discovery and definition of kind of your personas and your target audience. And that’s the first area where D&I needs to be considered. One is understanding your demographics. Are we talking age? Are we talking gender identity?
Do we have all this represented in our focus groups, in our surveys, whatever discovery methods are doing, right? Am I like, did I get Oh, we did the survey for 1000 people in the organization and we got this result. And I think this is what’s going to be you know, standing out for us. And I’m like, Okay. Where are these 1000 people, this category of folks? Or did we actually include more? There’s also a lot of external data that I think in general, whenever I see employer brand strategies, or EVPs being designed and deployed, there’s so much internal focus. And the reality is that the organization, EVP you do it or for what, five years, 10 years, maybe you want to keep it? What’s the best guess?
Your organization has a churn, it has attrition. People come and go, the makeup of that organization, the makeup of the talent that you’re targeting is changing in time, right? May let’s say Gen Z is coming into work. Gen alpha is coming into work. How are we serving those? Even just going maybe a bit externally to understand those demographics, not just your internal employee population, but external. Let’s say up-and-coming talent that’s very interesting to kind of tap into and incorporate the forward-looking vision in that employer brand. And then the voice, right? What tone of voice? What type of language do you use to create a sense of inclusion?
Georgiana:
Yeah, and you know, I’m always thinking just to add something and to conclude your your statement.
Oana Iordachescu:
Tell me more …
Georgiana:
I have found that without really giving a particular focus to diversity and inclusion. Because we work with companies that are smaller. And I guess my own and my personal philosophy on life, in general, is the philosophy of kindness and inclusion. But sometimes it’s so hard to bring everything in that needs to be brought in. I’m thinking of so many companies in Berlin, specifically, who are big companies, who have budgets, who include D&I people into their employer branding strategies, but who never practice what they preach.
You’re gonna ask girls who work at that specific company, how they feel, and they’re gonna say, Gosh, it’s xenophobic, and so misogynistic, and I’m having such a hard time every day. But you know, we look at the walls, it’s all full of mantras, and all fluffy. So I’m like, okay, maybe it’s disconnected to what you’ve said. But I’m wondering, how can we do it in a more practical way by actually practicing what we preach.
Oana Iordachescu:
I’m not sure. If I speak to my parents generation, right? Or different, even cultures. Sometimes it’s just not that important what the organization says, as long as they pay me, right? Like there is also this philosophy for a lot of people who work right and build a career. The reality on the other hand, is that we started visualizing, it’s in our face, how discrimination in the workplace is impacting not just the person, but the entire group, even the ones who are observing anything that’s happening wrong, right. And then their families, their communities. We need to reverse that and understand the damage that has been done generation by generation. And I don’t want to like, as you were saying, there are a lot of problems in the world. I’m just saying this seems a little bit, one that is not unsolvable.
Or at least something that if we would work a bit more towards together and have a deeper understanding and have that listening year. Because as you said, I have the focus group with the leader of the organization, they’re like, Yes, I love this value. Let’s all celebrate diversity, right? Let’s put that in our values.I see now a lot of executive leadership interview, kind of questions and set of dimensions. They test leaders on what did you do to support D&I in that organization? How much money did you allocate? First of all, right? If you had to allocate money to talent acquisition to employer brand, to HR, and then operations and whatever? Did you put 10k? Did you put 100k? Did you put a million? What did you do for that? Did you put resources? So there’s that and then second, like, how is your network looking like, what type of ERGs are you sponsoring? The people need to, as you say, walk the talk.
And there are many ways and I know it’s frustrating to see all the things that go wrong. But there are a lot of leaders out there, a lot of people who take the effort and they get frustrated, but they also get work done in the DEI space. I love for example, how SAP are very, let’s say not the mentality of people are very, I don’t know, old school kind of organist I don’t know, right. But they’re focused on neurodiversity, their programs to just diminish what’s happening in society, which is people with neurodiversity. They actually don’t even reach the workforce, although they could for different things. So just that dedication, those programs are super important when leaders in those organizations like the ones it’s up there, like, I’m just gonna put some money behind this. And that’s that.
Georgiana:
Yeah, I agree. And you know what, in the end, I think it all boils down are a big part of it boils down to getting educated on the topic and knowing more on the topic. And I’m thinking now I have a very specific example, an issue that occurred in my daughter’s school, with my daughter. A few weeks ago, we faced a racial discrimination topic. And by going more in-depth into the colleague’s mom, who is also a very dear person to me, I understood how little I know on the topic. And how much they are struggling to spread the word around on your topic. And I was like, why did I never learn in school? I did not learn 1% on this.
Oana Iordachescu:
Yeah, you’re so right about that. There’s so many things that we face on a daily basis from financial education to discrimination and equality, to health, right? Like, there’s so many topics that we face and struggle with as adults. So definitely starts there. I have no power in that area. I know there are a lot of like organizations and people working. But it’s hard, right? And it’s supposed to be hard. Like, this is not a new topic. This is centuries, millennia-old things.
Georgiana:
And it’s not an excuse. And I took it upon myself. And I promised myself I would start educating myself on the topic and my daughter at the same time, because just like poverty, for example. It’s an issue that we have to face every day. And just because it doesn’t happen to me personally. It doesn’t mean I don’t have to be aware of it. Oana that brings me to my, to my next question, because HR people are the gatekeepers, like you said to an organization, how can we help them to escape bias in recruitment? How do we make sure they’re well educated enough to bring in people based on their competence, not on their age, or on their race, not on their gender? Not on any other, you know, characteristics? How do we do that?
Oana Iordachescu:
Breaking news, bias will always be there. That’s how we function in the world. But I do want to give a couple of pointers, which I think helped me as an individual, to be more careful about my actions. And then the second piece is having this type of conversation. So for the individual awareness, there is a very interesting tool from Harvard; Harvard, implicit bias, it has a lot of, let’s say, sections, where you can test yourself, share it with people in the team, understand a little bit your background of how you make decisions, and how you make shortcuts. To put people in certain boxes like Friend or Foe like we have, we have this right in our brains. But understanding that is very interesting.
And for me, again, this was like about 10 years ago, I discovered this tool, it’s still very much promoted in all unbiased trainings or cultural awareness trainings. It’s a very good one, and it’s constantly evolving. And I’m going to share something which I’m not very proud of. But I think it’s important, right? Like 10 years ago, I was like 20 something. I was recruiting engineers, for international companies in Europe. And it was like this boom of tech, right? And every company was young and dynamic. And everywhere, every company was fast paced. Every company was a family, ping pong tables and whatever, right? And I think, because I landed in this environment where those were the job descriptions; those were the requirements, right? When you say we are young companies, like Oh, but we need young people, whatever, right? But I’ve done this. I tend not to be biased around gender.
I did nationalities, that ethnicity. And the results were like conclusive with the tape or normal, bias level, within whatever bracket. But then I did the age one. And it kind of showed, hey, you might actually be biased against older people. And I was like, for sure. I was young myself, I could see a lot of let’s say, my older generation who are not tech savy was like they’re never gonna make it at Vodafone right? They’ll never gonna make it at the super hip, new king, whatever, right? Like New gaming. All these like fancy organizations who are like hiring a lot of young people and also because in schools, they were coming out and so on. And it really helped me check myself and try almost like blind my old CVS when I was analyzing them. And I slightly true, right, like I would not necessarily not interview or not put them forward, but I would be having that first thought around, maybe not.
And, interestingly enough, that really helped me then hire people who are 50+ in tech jobs. First year so I would have been no that, you know, this is not what’s required of me, my employer, my hiring manager will not accept the CV, and you kind of start developing methodologies in that area. So, awareness, definitely, whatever tools you try to adopt and understand the 36 cognitive biases in recruitment and decision making around people, there are some very specific ones, just know at least the 10 ones and have a quick check with yourself whenever you need to make these decisions, whether it’s succession planning, giving feedback, for example, anything that happens in that area. And sorry, I’m talking so much about this because you. But for Germany, specifically, I think a lot of your audience would be familiar with the I think it’s Charta der Vielfalt.
This is an organization, governmental one that has a lot of educational pieces around bias, and discrimination and inclusion. And there is this map, actually super interesting that in the middle, little circle, right, imagine concentric circles. And in the middle, we talk about identity; diversity and bias influenced by the identity dimensions. And that will be gender, age, ability, things that in general you cannot change about yourself. These influence how you experience the world, they influence how the world interacts with you, right? The color of your skin, your gender, yada, yada. And then those circles continue, socio economical background. Are you rich or poor? Are you from this background? Are you from this? Are you from Bavaria? Are you from Eastern Europe?
Some things are so ingrained in our culture, so a lot of religions. So that’s the second circle, then the third is more around where are you currently in your life? Are you working? Are you a freelancer? Are you a mom or your dad, a lot of these things continue to influence decision. So being just aware of that, and kind of building some programs and sustainable investment in understanding your populations and addressing programs. For that, I’ll give you a very specific example where this is super useful. Building benefits for your organization. That’s a big difference between what one needs versus another so equity can be built in if you understand your demographics.
Georgiana:
And if you ask the people who work with you, maybe also what will motivate them and what would be a relevant benefit. And I’m asking that because this was a topic at yesterday’s conference, how you know, companies are offering benefits left and right nowadays, which for the most part are irrelevant because not enjoying sports is not going to do anything with the gym subscription and so forth.
Oana Iordachescu:
But that’s very true, right? For example, now I am with a disability. And if I am somebody who is permanent with a disability, and I’m like, you put 50 euros an organization to give me access to a gym, which I will never use, can I use the 50 euro for my physiotherapy, right? Right. Because if I don’t use those sets of benefits that you think are like for everybody, I get left with nothing. So it’s a very big gap between me and my friend, Georgiana, who is actually fully abled, and would benefit from all these things, right? So then you actually create gaps within your organization just because you can’t find the flexibility. And again, it’s not easy. And I know a lot of my friends in HR and benefits will hate me for this. But we just need to continue having those conversations and do that research and create just more open, sustainable programmatic investments.
Georgiana:
Right? And I think this is a super valuable, and you’ve given me an additional topic for this podcast connecting benefits with the topic of diversity and inclusion, and then implicitly Employer Branding. Super, super interesting. But one or we are reaching the end of our discussion. And I have one last question. I would love to chat with you for hours and maybe we can take this outside of the scope. What would you say is your biggest success so far when it comes to diversity and inclusion?
Oana Iordachescu:
To be honest, all the more serious programs that I managed to implement in organizations that I’ve been in are very different between themselves. But I would say there is a underlying piece that for me it brings almost joy and pride but also energy to move forward. From each of them I’ve learned, we’ve learned so much, whether in for example, booking.com, we did. Some women hiring events, women focused hackathons, they were a success. And we learned so much from them, even if we didn’t actually continue to do them in that format. We learned so much not just about hiring and women in tech, but also about booking as a product. And it was fascinating.
In Paris, we did some leadership, trainings and awareness with some fascinating trainers. The most recent one, for me, maybe something that will drive a lot of my future actions, which is creating DEI frameworks for the organization. How do we have leadership commitment, and that walk the talk, as we were saying, how do we implement tools and methodologies that actually support our goals, and we can measure them? And then how do we communicate and enable anybody who works with us. Because this is not just a bit like employer brand, right? Whatever people working on employer brand, the success of your EVP, the success of the employer brand team lays in how people actually live that to afterwards, right, how they take that and communicated and amplify it. And it’s the same idea. And I think this is my, my biggest most recent pride point is a framework that serves the organization at this point. And again, each organization was on a different journey. I always try to kind of understand what do we need now to move forward because then you just stall or go backwards, which is not something that we want.
Georgiana:
Cool. Oh, wow, this was so much fun. And I’ve learned so much. It’s like I said, a topic that I don’t really master, I’m basically just starting to scratch the surface. So thank you so much for talking to me, and please, let’s continue this offline.
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